felicitys_mind ([info]felicitys_mind) wrote,
@ 2006-09-08 21:42:00
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Entry tags:horcrux, nagini, parseltongue

Nagini as Horcrux


The argument for Nagini as the sixth Horcrux
(Tweaked on 9-9 in response to comments)

In an interview with The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet in July 2005, Rowling said,
 
“Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’ So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do. . . . . It's a huge order. But Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes. That's all I am going to say.
 
So what were Dumbledore’s guesses?
 
"...I think I know what the sixth Horcrux is.  I wonder what you will say when I confess that I have been curious for a while about the behavior of the snake, Nagini?”
 
“The snake? said Harry, startled. “You can use animals as Horcruxes?”
 
“Well, it is inadvisable to do so,” said Dumbledore, “because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business. However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents’ house with the intention of killing you.”
 
“He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophesy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.
 
“As we know, he failed.  After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.  She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enhances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certain likes to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth."
 
“So,” said Harry, “the diary’s gone, the ring’s gone. The cup, the locket, and the snake are still intact, and you think there might be a Horcrux that once was something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s?”
 
“An admirably succinct and accurate summary, yes,” said Dumbledore, bowing his head.[HBP-23]
 
Before getting into the arguments for Nagini as Horcrux, an explanation must be given for Dumbledore’s assumption that Voldemort had used Nagini to kill Frank Bryce since we know Babymort cast an AK to kill Frank. First, Dumbledore was drawing a parallel to young Tom Riddle’s use of Slytherin’s basilisk to kill Moaning Myrtle, and second, Dumbledore knew from reading Muggle newspapers that Frank Bryce had disappeared without a trace (GF30), so Dumbledore may have assumed Nagini killed on Voldemort’s orders and ate Frank Bryce’s body, which was not a crazy assumption given that Voldemort planned to feed Harry’s body to Nagini after the rebirthing ceremony:
 
“Nagini,” said the cold voice, “you are out of luck. I will not be feeding Wormtail to you, after all . . . but never mind, never mind . . . there is still Harry Potter . . . .” (GF29)
 
We got our initial information about Horcruxes (“wickedest of magical inventions”) from Slughorn, who said a Horcrux is “an object in which a person has concealed part of their soul.”  To make a Horcrux, the soul needs to be split first by a supreme act of evil—murder—so that a torn portion could be encased in the object. “Then, even if one’s body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul becomes earthbound and undamaged.” (HBP23) Slughorn did not know the spell used to encase the torn soul fragment in the object.
 
We can expect that Dumbledore, who was hunting Voldemort’s Horcruxes, had learned all he could on the subject of making and destroying them, and we got more information about making Horcruxes from Dumbledore’s assumption that Voldemort had used Nagini to kill Frank Bryce and afterwards thought to turn her into a Horcrux. His supposition tells us: 1) the murder is what counts, not the method used to kill (killing curse, lethal poison, etc.), 2) it doesn’t matter whether the murderer killed directly or used a proxy he was controlling (Slytherin’s basilisk, Nagini), 3) the murderer doesn’t even need to be considering making a Horcrux at the time of the murder to be able to make a Horcrux from that murder after, and 4) the murder comes before the Horcrux is made rather than being an internal part of the Horcrux-making process.  Since Voldemort was planning to use Harry’s death to make his final Horcrux, canon indicates Voldemort needed to kill Harry before performing the Horcrux ritual, and since the killing curse backfired and destroyed Voldemort’s body, he had no opportunity to make a Horcrux at Godric’s Hollow. Moreover, I suspect that since Horcruxes are the “wickedest of magical inventions,” they are created not with a flick of the wand and a word or two, but involve dark ritualist magic of the sort used for Voldemort’s rebirthing in the graveyard. 
 
That Voldemort would make a Horcrux out of Nagini didn't make a lot of sense to me at first given that he wanted to use distinguished, durable vessels worthy of his soul fragments, so Nagini wouldn’t have been his choice if other options were available, but perhaps he felt vulnerable at the beginning of Goblet of Fire and Nagini was a good choice given his circumstances and needs at that time.
 
Dumbledore said it’s not advisable to place a Horcrux in something that can move and think for itself, so under normal circumstances, Voldemort would not have chosen a living thing, but at the time he turned Nagini into a Horcrux, his circumstances weren’t normal. Voldemort is extremely independent (recall that even at age 11, he bragged about roaming London on his own, and he didn’t want Dumbledore’s help to find Diagon Alley and buy his school things), yet during Goblet of Fire when Babymort was newly back in the UK with Wormtail, he was vulnerable and dependent. His Legilimency skills told him Wormtail was repulsed by him and found the round-the-clock care he needed onerous.  
 
“And so you volunteer to go and fetch me a substitute? I wonder . . . perhaps the task of nursing me has become wearisome for you, Wormtail? Could this suggestion of abandoning the plan be nothing more than an attempt to desert me?
 
“My Lord! I—I have no to wish to leave you, none at all—“
 
“Do not lie to me!” hissed the second voice. “I can always tell, Wormtail! You are regretting that you ever returned to me. I revolt you. I see you flinch when you look at me, feel you shudder when you touch me . . . “
 
“No! My devotion to your Lordship—“
 
“Your devotion is nothing more than cowardice. You would not be here if you had anywhere else to go. How am I to survive without you, when I need feeding every few hours? Who is to milk Nagini?”
 
“But you seem so much stronger, My Lord—“
 
“Liar,” breathed the second voice. “I am no stronger, and few days alone would be enough to rob me of the little health I have regained under your clumsy care.” (GF1)
 
What was Babymort’s condition?
 
“It was as though Wormtail had flipped over a stone and revealed something ugly, slimy, and blind—but worse, a hundred times worse. The thing Wormtail had been carrying had the shape of a crouched human child, except that Harry had never seen anything less like a child. It was hairless and scaly-looking, a dark, raw, reddish black. Its arms and legs were thin and feeble, and its face—no child ever had a face like that—flat and snakelike, with gleaming red eyes.
 
The thing was almost helpless: it raised its thin arms, put them around Wormtail’s neck, and Wormtail lifted it. As he did so, his hood fell back, and Harry saw the look of revulsion on Wormtail’s weak, pale face in the firelight as he carried the creature to the rim of the cauldron. (GF32)
 
Voldemort knew it would be nearly a year before the ritual to restore him to a full body with Harry’s blood would be performed, and until then, he would be utterly dependent.  Wormtail wasn’t happy with the situation, and Babymort knew it.  So he may have decided to make a Horcrux out of Nagini for practical reasons. He would have more control over Nagini if she contained part of his soul, so he would be able to use her to keep Wormtail in line. If Wormtail did abandon him, Nagini would be able to act as his scout and messenger to find another Death Eater and lead him or her to the Riddle house. Voldemort clearly didn't want his Death Eaters to see him as Babymort, which is why he and Wormtail made no contact with any all year except for the necessary contact with Barty Crouch, Jr. Voldemort didn’t summon them until he was back in a full body with full powers. 
 
One of the reasons I believe Voldemort wanted founders’ relics is that they often, if not always, have special magical powers. Hepzibah Smith said the Hufflepuff Cup and Slytherin Locket had “all sorts of powers” and we know Gryffindor’s Sorting Hat does. So where does Nagini fit in? In Hindu and Buddhist tradition, Nagas are a race of semi-divine snakes with great powers, and a female Naga is called a Nagini. Although we have never been told what kind of snake Nagini is, Nagas are traditionally depicted as large cobra-like snakes, and Nagini in GF1 was described as having an “ugly triangular head.” Nagas have an affinity for water, carry the Elixir of Life, and symbolize both fertility and immortality. In Malaysian tradition, the natural enemy of the Naga is a phoenix.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naga_%28mythology%29
 
So Nagini’s name tells us she isn’t just a big snake. Rowling has tied all the traditional Naga associations to Nagini. Voldemort is a Slytherin by blood and house (water element). He used Nagini’s venom to keep himself alive during Goblet of Fire (Elixir of Life). Babymort’s description as being like a human child with a hairless, reddish-black, scaly body and flat snake-like face along with the use of the verb “milked” to collect Nagini’s venom suggest Nagini was used to get Vapormort into a rudimentary physical form (fertility); this last association is deliberate since there is a strong “mother” pattern in Goblet of Fire (Draco insulted Molly, Harry responded by insulting Narcissa, Mrs. Crouch died in Azkaban to free Barty, Jr., Molly and Bill stood in for Harry’s family, the dragons were brooding mothers, Charlie wrote to "Mum" after the first task to tell her Harry was fine, Voldemort spoke of Merope and Lily in the graveyard, Lily's shade spoke to Harry during the Priori Incantatem spell, Molly embraced Harry in the hospital, and for the first time in his experience, he was hugged “as though by a mother,” etc.). So Voldemort's use of Nagini to thwart death by making her into a Horcrux would complete the traditional Naga associations (immortality).

Moreover, in "all mythological language the snake is also an emblem of immortality. Its endless representation with its tail in its mouth (Ouroboros), and the constant renewal of its skin and vigor, enliven the symbols of continued youth and eternity (Soror Ourania, "Thelemix and Therion Rising"). The Healers at St. Mungo's had a hard time closing Arthur’s wounds because Nagini’s venom was so extraordinary, suggesting an unusual snake. If Nagini is a magical creature with special powers who was the means to Voldemort's mini-rebirthing as appears, he would have reason to find her a significant vessel for his soul fragment. And she may even be a very long-lived magical snake, just as Slytherin’s basilisk was.
 
Another reason Voldemort may have decided to use Nagini as a Horcrux in GF1 is that it gave Voldemort his set of seven Horcruxes, so he would have the magical power of seven during a time when he was vulnerable and preparing to kill the very boy who had somehow defeated him 13 years earlier (Voldemort didn’t know then that the diary had been destroyed).  He might have used a more distinguished object even then (especially if he left his intended vessel behind at Godric’s Hollow), but then he would have had to involve Wormtail to get the object for him, and that would make Wormtail suspicious. Voldemort is not likely to have entrusted Wormtail with Horcrux information, but he would have been able to turn Nagini into a Horcrux using Frank Bryce’s murder without Wormtail's being any the wiser. And since Voldemort and Nagini communicate in Parseltongue, Wormtail would not become suspicious that Voldemort seemed to be exercising greater control over Nagini than previously or would not know the reason for Voldemort's greater control.  
 
Many people believe Dumbledore mentioned Nagini only as a hint to Harry that Harry himself was carrying a part of Voldemort’s soul in him, but that doesn’t work for me. Dumbledore learned his lesson about withholding vital information from Harry because Sirius died at the end of Order of the Phoenix and Harry would have died if not for Dumbledore’s nick-of-time intervention.  From that, Dumbledore learned that withholding unpleasant news from Harry led to a disaster rather than averted one, so he wouldn’t make that mistake again. Moreover, for Dumbledore to suspect Harry has a piece of Voldemort’s soul in him but to tell Harry that Nagini is the likely Horcrux (and give several reasons why Voldemort would turn her into one) would be far worse than merely withholding information; it would be tantamount to setting up Harry’s failure by sending him in the wrong direction and potentially leaving him vulnerable to another of Voldemort’s traps.
 
Rowling has given us passages indicating to us that Dumbledore’s confident hunch about Nagini's being a Horcrux was not amiss. Consider how much control Voldemort had over Nagini while possessing her when Arthur Weasley was attacked outside the door to the Department of Mysteries in Order of the Phoenix. Nagini had to travel from Little Hangleton to London and then negotiate her way around the Ministry of Magic to get to the right floor and Department of Mysteries, and then return to Little Hangleton after attacking Arthur. 
 
During the attack, Harry dreamed he was inside Nagini:
 
“The dream changed . . . .
 
His body felt smooth, powerful, and flexible. He was gliding between shining metal bars, across, cold stone. . . . He was flat against the floor, sliding along on his belly. . . . It was dark, yet he could see objects around him shimmering in strange, vibrant colors. . . . He was turning his head. . . . At first glance, the corridor was empty . . . but no . . . a man was sitting on the floor ahead, his chin drooping onto his chest, his outline gleaming in the dark. . . .
 
Harry put out his tongue. . . . He tested the man’s scent on the air. . . . He was alive but drowsing . . .sitting in front of a door at the end of the corridor . . .
 
Harry longed to bite the man . . .but he must master the impulse . . . he had more important work to do . . . .
 
But the man was stirring . . . a silvery cloak fell from his legs as he jumped to his feet; and Harry saw his vibrant, blurred outline towering above him, saw a wand withdrawn from a belt. . . .He had no choice. . . . He reared high from the floor and struck once, twice, three times, plunging his fangs deeply into the man’s flesh, feeling his ribs splinter beneath his jaws, feeling the warm gush of blood. . . . .
 
The man was yelling in pain . . . then he fell silent. . . . He slumped backward against the wall. . . . Blood was splattering onto the floor. . . .
 
His forehead hurt terribly. . . . It was aching fit to burst. . . . (OP21)
 
On the night Harry saw Arthur attacked by Nagini, Dumbledore ran a test with one of his little whirring, silver, smoky instruments. We don’t know what nonverbal command Dumbledore gave to the instrument when he tapped it with wand, but a after a few seconds, a snake took form out of the smoke. When Dumbledore said, “But it essence divided?” the smoky snake divided into two snakes. I don’t know for sure what Dumbledore meant by “in essence divided,” but he surely was performing an experiment directly related to Harry’s dream about the snake attack. 
 
"Dumbledore now swooped down upon one of the fragile silver instruments whose function Harry had never known, carried it over to his desk, sat down facing them again, and tapped it gently with the tip of his wand.
 
The instruments tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the miniscule silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his brow furrowed, and after a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air. . . . A serpent's head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. Harry wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: He looked eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but Dumbledore did not look up.

"Naturally, naturally," murmured Dumbledore apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. "But in essence divided?"

Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction, Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand: The clinking noise slowed and died, and the smoke serpents grew faint, became a formless haze, and vanished."
(OP22).
 
As Snape later told Harry, “You seem to have visited the snake’s mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment” . . . “He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed that you were inside it too. . . . “ (OP24)  We don’t know what command Dumbledore gave the silver instrument, but I take this experiment as one of Dumbledore’s reasons for suspecting Voldemort may have turned Nagini into a Horcrux; it may have confirmed the possibility or likelihood of it, since Dumbledore was not 100% certain that Nagini was a Horcrux. I do believe that following Harry’s report and the experiment, Snape was asked to keep an eye on the interaction between Nagini and Voldemort and report back to Dumbledore. We do not know when Voldemort obtained Nagini, but Dumbledore knows the snake’s name, knows Voldemort likes to keep her close, and knows Voldemort has an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth.
 
How different was the snake dream from Harry’s owl dream at the end of Goblet of Fire. In the owl dream, the episode with Barty Crouch, Sr.'s stumbling out of the Forbidden Forest and subsequently disappearing had happened a couple of days earlier.  Harry was sitting in Divination class when he fell asleep and began to dream:
 
“He was riding on the back of an eagle owl, soaring through the clear blue sky toward an old, ivy-covered house set high on a hillside. Lower and lower they flew, the wind blowing pleasantly in Harry’s face, until they reached a dark and broken window in the upper story of the house and entered. Now they were flying along a gloomy passageway, to a room at the very end . . . through the door they went, into a dark room whose windows were boarded up. . . .
 
Harry had left the owl’s back . . .he was watching, now, as it fluttered across the room, into a chair with its back to him. . . . There were two dark shapes on the floor beside the chair . . .both of them were stirring. . . .
 
One was a huge snake . . .the other was a man . . .a short, balding man, a man with watery eyes and a pointed nose . . .he was wheezing and sobbing on the hearth rug. . . .
 
“You are in luck, Wormtail,” said a cold, high-pitched voice from the depths of the chair in which the owl had landed. “You are very fortunate indeed. Your blunder has not ruined everything. He is dead.” (GF29)
 
Harry awoke from the dream with his scar burning from Voldemort’s torture of Wormtail, but what strikes me is that Harry dreamt he was the snake in Order of the Phoenix whereas he dreamt he was merely flying next to the owl in the Goblet of Fire dream.  In the snake dream, Voldemort was possessing Nagini, so Harry was mentally inside Nagini’s body along with Voldemort’s mind, whereas in the owl dream, Harry was flying alongside the bird because Voldemort’s mind was only dwelling on the owl that would bring news of Barty Crouch, Sr.’s escape from Wormtail, not possessing the owl. In both dreams, Harry’s scar connection was to Voldemort’s mind. Dumbledore told Harry at the end of Order of the Phoenix that on the night of the snake attack on Arthur, Harry had “entered so far into his mind and thoughts that he sensed your presence.” (OP7)
 
And indeed, on her website, Rowling has described the scar as forging a mind-to-mind connection between Harry and Voldemort:
 
“In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.” 
Rowling appears to me to be working with a tripartite anthropology (body + mind + soul) rather than a bipartite anthropology (body + soul). From what I’ve read in the six books to date, the soul is an essence that enables self-awareness, but it is separate from the conscious mind/brain.  A big hint came in Prisoner of Azkaban when Lupin described what happens when a dementor’s kiss sucks the soul out of a person. The victim's brain could be working, but he or she would have no memories because the soul enables self-awareness.  Clearly there must be another animating force keeping the body alive, so the bipartite model doesn't fit:
 
“You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self anymore, no memory, no ... anything. There's no chance at all of recovery. You'll just -- exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever ... lost." (PA12)
 
In Half-blood Prince, Dumbledore distinguished between Voldemort’s soul on one hand and his mind/powers on the other, and it's a curious statement given that Vapormort was without a physical brain for 13 years, so he must be referring to the conscious mind of Vapormort's spectral self during those years of exile in Albania:
 
 . . . “Without his Hocruxes, Voldemort will be a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul. Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged beyond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact  (HBP23)
 
So it seems Dumbledore was correct when he told Harry in Chamber of Secrets that Voldemort had unintentionally transferred some of his powers into Harry:
 
“You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,” said Dumbledore calmly, “because Lord Voldemort—who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin—can speak Parseltongue. Unless I’m much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I’m sure. . . . “
 
‘”Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?” Harry said, thunderstruck.
 
“It certainly seems so.”
 
“So I should be in Slytherin,” Harry said, looking desperately into Dumbledore’s face. “The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin’s power in me, and it—“ (CS18)
 
Some of Slytherin's/Voldemort’s power had been transferred into Harry when the killing curse backfired, not some of Voldemort’s soul.  There are two clues that support the transfer of mind/powers to Harry.  The brain that attacked Ron in the Department of Mysteries left “thought scars” on Ron's arms, and according to Madam Pomfrey, "thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else.” (OP38).  The Sorting Hat is the other clue since Rowling has unequivocally stated it is not a Horcrux, yet the Sorting Hat is able to communicate telepathically with the students wearing it and it looks into their minds to assess their current and potential abilities (intelligence, magical talent, ambition, fair-mindedness, etc.). Most importantly, we know from the Hat that it's able to do those things because "the founders put some brains in me."  (GF12)
 
Moreover, the killing curse didn’t work against Harry as Voldemort expected because of the “ancient magic” protecting Harry invoked by Lily’s sacrificial death, and that’s a powerful reason for me to reject Harrycrux or Scarcrux theories. It was ancient protective magic invoked because she loved Harry so much she chose to die to protect him even when given the chance to live. So thematically, it just doesn’t work that Lily’s sacrifice and the magical protection her death imparted to Harry turned her baby into the “wickedest of magical inventions,” even accidentally. However, the power transfer and mind-to-mind scar connection are consistent with that ancient protective magic because Harry now has tools no other wizard possesses, tools that will enable him to vanquish the Dark Lord per the prophesy.  Harry has been marked as Voldemort’s equal because he shares some of Voldemort’s unique powers and because the scar gives him a magical window into Voldemort’s mind as Dumbledore and Rowling have stated.  
 
These tools and powers are neutral, not evil, as we've seen: Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue led to his freeing the boa at the zoo, saving Justin from a snake attack during the dueling match, and opening the Chamber of Secrets to save Ginny and defeat Diarymort.  As Dumbledore said, Parseltongue is also a gift found among the great and the good. It's true that Harry has entertained thoughts of torturing Severus Snape, but I think one of the reasons Rowling showed us James’s and Sirius’s dark side is so we would not assume Harry's own temptations and occasional horrendous behavior are a consequence of the powers transferred to him at Godric's Hollow. I for one can imagine James daydreaming about torturing Snape.  Sirius set Snape up to be killed or become a werewolf when they were only 16 years old.  And we know James and Sirius weren't Voldemort's Horcruxes.
 
So while these arguments do not prove Nagini is a Horcrux and while this is not an exhaustive rebuttal of Harrycrux and Scarcrux theories, I do believe canon evidence for Nagini as the sixth Horcrux is far superior to arguments that Harry is an accidental Horcrux.  While Dumbledore was not 100% sure of Nagini, he was confident enough to specifically name her and give reasons why Voldemort would have turned her into one. Moreover, Nagini as the sixth Horcrux is consistent with Rowling’s comment that Dumbledore’s guesses are never very far wide of the mark. Travis Prinzi (http://swordofgryffindor.com/), who is not convinced that Nagini is a Horcrux (see comments and his website) argues that 'not very far wide of the mark' is not the same as 'always on the mark,' and that’s a fair point.  But I believe the wiggle room is in the mystery Horcrux: “and you think there might be a Horcrux that once was something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s?”  
 
My theory is that the mystery Horcrux is not a true founder's relic like Slytherin’s locket, but is a founder family heirloom like the Peverell ring, which would make “a Horcrux that once was something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s” slightly off the mark. (http://felicitys-mind.livejournal.com/2342.html)  Since Dumbledore’s description of the mystery Horcrux was vague to begin with and since the trio have the example of the Peverell ring to guide them, the "slightly off the mark" description of the mystery Horcrux isn’t dangerously misleading. Harrycrux or Scarcrux would be very far off the mark relative to Dumbledore's list.  However, I do agree with Travis that Rowling has likely written the series to date in a way that readers will wonder if a part of Voldemort's soul was transferred into Harry at Godric's Hollow; she does love the game, but I think canon evidence is against Harrycrux or Scarcrux.
 
A final reason why Nagini is probably the sixth Horcrux is that this is a fabulous plot set-up for Harry’s ability to speak Parseltongue. After all, both Harry and Voldemort speak Parseltongue, and it’s a key way in which Voldemort marked Harry as his equal. We haven’t seen Harry use that ability since Chamber of Secrets, and while it was the means by which Harry opened the Chamber, we didn’t see Harry attempt to speak Parseltongue to the basilisk, and we didn’t see Harry attempt to speak Parseltongue to Nagini in the graveyard. We will most definitely see him speak Parseltongue to Nagini and Voldemort in Book 7, and how much more dramatic will it be if Nagini is Voldemort’s last remaining hope for immortality?
 
By the time of their final confrontation, I expect Voldemort will know Harry has destroyed his Horcruxes other than Nagini, yet he may feel secure with Nagini as a Horcrux since he would not expect anyone to guess he had made a Horcrux out of an animal (which is why Harry's dream of the attack on Arthur was so important to Dumbledore's Horcrux guesses).  Voldemort keeps Nagini close, so it’s likely that Harry won’t meet up with Nagini until the final face-off with Voldemort. 
 
I’ve been convinced by arguments that Harry will not personally use the Avada Kedavr to kill Voldemort. We know their wands won’t work properly against each other, Snape warned Harry away from Unforgivable Curses and instead "told him" to practice Occlumency and non-verbal spells, and most importantly, I don’t think Rowling would want Harry to use the killing curse, even to destroy Voldemort.
 
It will certainly be dramatic when both Voldemort and Harry attempt to control Nagini by speaking Parseltongue to her, and I can see a replay of the graveyard scene when just as Harry’s powers were able to move the bead of light into Voldemort’s wand to produce the Priori Incantatem effect, so Harry’s powers will be greater than Voldemort’s in controlling Nagini when she is not being possessed by Voldemort. I’m wondering if Voldemort will possess Nagini as a way to attack Harry and reassert control. My reason for speculating so is that I’ve noticed traces of Milton’s Paradise Lost in the HP series, especially in Voldemort’s increasingly snake-like appearance and in Voldemort’s “stupidly good” offer to let Lily live (a parallel to Satan's "stupidly good" moment when he saw Eve), and it’s occurred to me that just as Satan is literally turned into a snake at the end of Paradise Lost, Voldemort may take possession of Nagini and literally become a snake before Harry finally vanquishes him.



(Post a new comment)


[info]dreamer_marie
2006-09-09 02:38 am UTC (link)
That was a very interesting essay, and also very convincing.
Thank you for sharing such clear thoughts.

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-09 03:25 am UTC (link)
oooh, lots to say here. I've been looking forward to your posting this one. It's rare that I disagree much with your essays. Excellent work overall, but let me offer a few challenges, none of which settle the matter for me, but they give me pause.

1. Rowling's comment that Dumbledore is never "very far wide of the mark" is interesting, because it allows, and I think deliberately, room for error in Dumbledore's speculations about the horcruxes (though perhaps not significant error). It implies that he is potentially a "little" wide of the mark. The question I have to ask is, If there is some minor error in Dumbledore's horcrux guesswork, what is that error?

Certainly it's not the number - JKR has entirely shot down the idea that Voldemort ended up, without realizing it, creating 7 horcruxes instead of 6. Several theories I've recently read are entirely annihilated with this.

So the error must be in the guesswork of what objects are actually horcruxes. "The locket, the cup, the snake, something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's." Since Dumbledore was willing to bet a couple of fingers on the locket and cup, we should be quite certain about those two. "Something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's" - well, if this is what he's wrong about, then it's a huge rabbit trail that would seem to detract too much from a book that already has too much to accomplish. I guess my inclination is to think that if there is an error in Dumbledore's guesswork, and I think Rowling implied the possibility quite strongly, Nagini is the most likely candidate for that error.

2. Nevertheless, the "in essence divided" experiment is a very, very strong point in favor of Nagini-crux. Two different existences of Voldemort's soul, but in essence divided (one abiding in LV himself, one abiding in and controlling Nagini).

3. On the Scarcrux theory...I've been all over when it comes to this one. The most compelling argument against scarcrux is Dumbledore's not saying anything to Harry. But I'm not as convinced that "Dumbledore learned his lesson" about not telling Harry things as you are, perhaps. Dumbledore's statement that when he makes errors, they tend to be a lot bigger than most (my paraphrase) is a potential set-up for a huge Dumbledore error (and you know I'm a big defender of Dumbledore). Dumbledore's exceeding love for Harry might do one of two things: (a) cause him to put off telling him about the potential of a scar-crux until they've had more time to discuss and dismantle horcruxes (and until Snape is present with him, because if scarcrux is true, my guess is Snape has the ability to destroy it); or (b) to be a little too easily satisfied with the conclusion that the scar is not a horcrux.

Admittedly, none of this is entirely satisfying, and there are reasonable counter-arguments to all points I've presented...but other attempts at explaining the "mind link" have not been satisfying, especially when we've had no other magic explained thus far, apart from horcrux magic, that could possibly explain it. The tripartite treatment of the soul (which I entirely agree with you on) would be compelling were it not for the mind link that exists between Nagini and Voldemort (if Nagini is a horcrux). Of course, it can't be that Nagini and Harry are both horcruxes, or we have too many (unless there really isn't "something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's," which as I said above, I don't believe). But I guess what I'm getting at is that arguing that Nagini is a horcrux, but Harry isn't because a "mind link" doesn't equal a soul part doesn't quite fit for me, since there's an obvious mind-link that exists in the assumption that Nagini is a horcrux.

Unless I'm terribly misunderstanding either your or tripartite soul theory, which is altogether possible.

Anyway, good thoughts, and I'd love to hear your responses to the issues that cause me to hesitate on the Nagini-crux and Scar-crux theories. I'm still inclined away from Scar-crux, but I'm not willing to dismiss it yet. I've been pretty darned close to being convinced before.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 03:57 am UTC (link)
Hi, Travis.

I think the point was made several times (by Dumbledore and Snape) that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux so that he would have more control over her, but on the night of the attack on Arthur, Voldemort was possessing Nagini the way Voldemort possessed Harry at the end of OotP (when Harry was being possessed, he said he was bound to a creature with red eyes, and when the creature spoke, it used Harry's mouth, etc.). So that's where we disagree, I think. I don't believe Voldemort can just see through Nagini's eyes anytime just because he put a soul fragment into her; I think he has to possess Nagini the way he possessed Harry in the DoM, and it was because his mind was in Nagini that night that Harry was able to see out of Nagini's eyes just as Voldemort was at that moment.

I do think there's room for a bit of error in the "you think there might be a Horcrux that once was something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s?" in the sense that Dumbledore assumed it would be a true founder's relic whereas (as you know) I think the goblin-made tiara could be a Ravenclaw family heirloom just as the Peverell ring was a Slytherin family heirloom but not something that was once owned by the founder directly. So I don't rule that out, and it would be a little far wide of the mark, but still in the general area and not "off" enough that the trio couldn't work it out (esp with the example they have of the Peverell ring).

For Dumbledore to say Nagini is a Horcrux when he knew she wasn't was just an unnecessary falsehood. He would have been better off saying he didn't know what the last one might be but that it could even be a living thing. If the point was to throw a hint at Harry that wasn't misleading, that would have been the way to do it. And I do believe Dumbledore learned his lesson at the end of OotP and wouldn't withhold vital information. Plus, at the end of PS when Harry wanted to ask Dumbledore questions, Dumbledore said "I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to . . .I shall not, of course, lie." To say Nagini was a Horcrux when he knew better would be a lie. The alternative is that he was wrong about Nagini and Harry is a Horcrux, but that, IMO would be VERY far wide of the mark.

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-09 04:17 am UTC (link)
Good points, all.

I'd be more inclined to think that Dumbledore had concluded that Harry was not a horcrux and that Nagini was one, rather than that Dumbledore though Harry was a horcrux and decided to mislead Harry by telling him Nagini was the horcrux. In other words, I think Dumbledore told Harry the truth about what he actually believed in that office.

I'm still leaving the possibility open in my mind, though, that Dumbledore was wrong on this one. Rowling sort of interpreted her own words: Dumbledore's not being very far off the mark = he has to find and destroy four horcruxes. He's very likely "off the mark" on at least one of them.

Here I go again, swinging further away from the scarcrux theory again...I'll have to start revisiting the old reasons I was tempted towards it to see if they ever had any merit. Janet Batchler told me that her position is that Harry is not a horcrux, but a good enough argument could persuade her. That's about where I am. It makes sense from a storytelling point of view, anyway.

Presently, I'm more tempted towards a little idea I've constructed...I've noticed places within the books where Rowling seems to be tipping her hat towards fandom theories and speculations...I can't think of a specific instance at the moment, but I think she's picking on us when someone within her plot tries to solve a book's mystery and comes up with some dumb idea (like Ron). I'm beginning to wonder if she hadn't planned all of this fandom speculation about the scarcrux, and the in Book 7, Harry will begin to wonder and speculate as to whether or not his scar is a horcrux. It will become a bit of a crisis point for him until he finds out that it isn't one.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 05:02 am UTC (link)
It may be that Harry will wonder if he's a Horcrux, but that would be a bit of a replay of OoTP when he thought he might be possessed and Ginny had to explain to him what possession feels like. And now Harry knows the diary was a Horcrux, so I can't imagine he'd give that much consideration to being one himself. Now we're getting into all the anti-Harrycrux arguments, such as why hasn't the soul fragment tried to take over? We know Voldemort cannot possess Harry without unbearable pain because Harry does love (and Voldemort does not). And Voldemort couldn't Imperio Harry in the graveyard (so if making Nagini a Horcrux gives Voldemort more control over her, why isn't the same true of Harrycrux?). I've also never read a convincing argument to explain how he would get it out of himself, something he has to do before vanquishing Voldemort. Cutting his scar open doesn't work because baby Harry got a cut on his forehead at Godric's Hollow (Hagrid called it a gash or something like that), so why would this soul fragment have even stayed inside Harry?

Nagini just hits me as being the right Horcrux for lots of reasons, and one of the strongest is that Dumbledore would be so unnecessarily misleading (dangerously so) for reasons mentioned.

Plus, I believe the Stoppered Death theory as you know, and when Harry and Dumbledore were heading for the sea cave, Harry asked which Horcrux Dumbledore thought might be in the cave and Dumbledore said he didn't know which one was there, but not Nagini (because Voldemort keeps her close and wouldn't be storing her in a remote sea cave). So Dumbledore was still reinforcing Nagini as a Horcrux when he knew his time was almost up. That just isn't Dumbledore.

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-09 01:58 pm UTC (link)
More good points against scarcrux.

Still, the "Dumbledore wouldn't have suggested Nagini if she weren't a horcrux" doesn't work for me. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Dumbledore is intentionally misleading Harry about Nagini. (That would be "nutters"). I certainly don't. I just think it's entirely possible that he (a) wholeheartedly believes that Nagini is the best guess for the final horcrux and that (b) he's wrong. Simple as that.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 05:13 pm UTC (link)
I’m with you in rejecting arguments that Dumbledore did believe Harry was a Horcrux but didn't have the heart to tell him so planted the Nagini clue in the hope that Harry would catch the hint and realize at some point he was one. As noted, the hint would have been better given as a general “we do need to consider that Voldemort may have placed a soul fragment in a living thing” But Dumbledore not only listed Nagini as a Horcrux guess, he gave reasons why Voldemort would have make a Horcrux out of Nagini to support his guess. So Dumbledore wouldn’t have been deliberately misleading Harry.

But I can’t buy that Dumbledore would have failed to consider the possibility that Harry could be a Horcrux. As I argued in my essay, Dumbledore assumed Voldemort had used Nagini to kill Frank and then as an afterthought considered making her into a Horcrux with his death. That means clearly (to me) that the Horcrux-making is entirely separate from the murder and is performed after the murder. You don’t even need to be considering making a Horcrux with a murder to use that murder afterwards to make a Horcrux. Voldemort wanted to make the last Horcrux with Harry’s murder, so the Horcrux-making ritual wouldn’t have been underway when the curse backfired, and that says to me that 1) any Harrycrux or Scarcrux theories that rely on the murder being an internal part of the Horcrux-making ritual are wrong and 2) Dumbledore ruled out Harry as a Horcrux possibility because he knew Voldemort was destroyed by the backfired curse and wouldn't even have been able to attempt it.

What also destroys the Scarcrux theory for me is that Voldemort didn't give Harry a scar like a brand-mark at the time of the backfired curse; the curse cut Harry's head open as is clear from several passages, and the cut healed into a scar by a natural process (not by a Healer at St. Mungo’s). Baby Harry was described as having “a curiously shaped cut, like a bolt of lightening” when Hagrid dropped him off at Privet Drive; McGonagall asked Dumbledore if he could do something about it, and Dumbledore said he wouldn't even if he could because “scars can come in handy” (PS1). Hagrid said he took baby Harry out of the ruins of Godric’s Hollow with “a great slash across his forehead” (PA10). Draco said “I don’t want a foul scar right across my head, thanks. I don’t think getting your head cut open makes you that special, myself.” (CS6).

So for the Scarcrux theory to work, a piece of Voldemort's soul would have somehow needed to leave Voldemort’s body, travel to baby Harry's open head wound, and then stay there in place until scar tissue trapped it---all of this happening without the soul fragment entering Harry himself or flying off to go behind the Veil. So Scarcrux theories are not plausible from my point of view.

We know Harry did get powers like Parseltongue, which demonstrates that whatever was transferred into Harry at Godric's Hollow did go into Harry himself. For that reason, I think Harrycrux theories are more defensible that Scarcrux theories, but Occam’s razor says Dumbledore was right and powers, not soul, were transferred into Harry. I’ve seen a lot of arguments in favor of Harrycrux and Scarcrux, but all of them IMO are much better explained by the mind/powers transfer, and the mind/powers transfer is what our best sources—Dumbledore and Rowling—are telling us.

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-09 07:08 pm UTC (link)
But I can’t buy that Dumbledore would have failed to consider the possibility that Harry could be a Horcrux.

I can't buy that either. It would have to be that Dumbledore did very much consider the possibility, and decided against it (and is wrong).

Which is possible (again, there's that huge Dumbledore error set-up), but unlikely in my mind.

So for the Scarcrux theory to work, a piece of Voldemort's soul would have somehow needed to leave Voldemort’s body, travel to baby Harry's open head wound, and then stay there in place until scar tissue trapped it---all of this happening without the soul fragment entering Harry himself or flying off to go behind the Veil. So Scarcrux theories are not plausible from my point of view.

I'm not sure if this renders the theory implausible. If there was a piece of LV's soul in that cut, where exactly would it go before the scar formed over it?

In any event, reconsidering this issue once again (I dropped it and ignored it for quite some time), I'm definitely leaning against scarcrux once again. There are too many thematic issues that make it possible, however, so I'm not willing to entirely discard it. And we still need something to explain just how "mind links" happen.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 07:29 pm UTC (link)
"I'm not sure if this renders the theory implausible. If there was a piece of LV's soul in that cut, where exactly would it go before the scar formed over it?"

I don't believe the soul fragments are destroyed when the Horcrux vessel is destroyed. What I'm seeing is that turning an object into a Horcrux does not physically damage it (diary, locket) but getting the Horcrux out does require it to be damaged (hole put in diary, stone in ring cracked), and my thought is that the soul fragment is released and goes behind the Veil at that point.

I just don't see how a soul fragment of Voldemort's could have hovered near Harry's open wound for the days it took for the cut to heal. My sense is that it would not have been "anchored" in a closed container so it wouldn't have stayed there.

Plus, if it's true as seems that a vessel is not damaged when a soul fragment is placed in it, but the vessel must be broken open to release the soul fragment, then
Horcrux-making is the opposite of what happened to Harry since he was broken open by the backfiring spell.

Do you see what I mean or am I not thinking of this correctly?

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-09 07:49 pm UTC (link)
I do see what you mean, and I think this is reasonable stuff. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I put up a rudimentary "Is Harry a horcrux" post shortly after HBP, and it's at 441 comments now with no sign of slowing down! So I'm used to making this conversation last... =) Let me try to devil's advocate thing again here:

I just don't see how a soul fragment of Voldemort's could have hovered near Harry's open wound for the days it took for the cut to heal. My sense is that it would not have been "anchored" in a closed container so it wouldn't have stayed there.

If the theory is true, the soul wouldn't have "hovered near," it would have been embedded in the cut itself, in the damaged tissue. If there were no such thing as a "scarring" process and cuts remained open, the soul bit would still be sitting in that cut.

Plus, if it's true as seems that a vessel is not damaged when a soul fragment is placed in it, but the vessel must be broken open to release the soul fragment, then
Horcrux-making is the opposite of what happened to Harry since he was broken open by the backfiring spell.


But I think the key to that night in particular is that nothing happened as planned. The whole night is weird, and spells didn't act like they were supposed to. Now back to the "ifs." If scarcrux theory is true, it would be the first time a horcrux was created simultaneously with the AK spell (I agree with you that horcrux creation is not an addendum to the killing curse). I guess my point in short would be that it wasn't horcrux creation that made the cut - it was still the backfired AK curse that caused that.

Sorry if I'm taking you on a huge tangent here...I know this was supposed to be about Nagini! I think finally writing all this stuff out is letting me see the whole situation from a different angle. The problem continues to be how little know about how a horcrux is created. I just read someone recently suggest that a soul bit is torn fired away from the body with every AK curse. Doesn't fit at all, and your research here proves that. But it just goes to show much we're all guessing. What I like about this essay is that you're going with what we know and basing guesses on that, rather than trying to guess how horcruxes are created and such.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Not a huge tangent that bothers me. We learn best when we’re forced to defend our arguments.

My first objection to the argument that the soul fragment would have become embedded only in the damaged tissue around the cut on Harry’s forehead is that it breaks the KISS rule. It requires an explanation too arcane to be one Rowling would use. She’s pretty simple about Horcruxes: Voldemort placed a part of his soul in the Peverell Ring, and it was destroyed as a Horcrux by simply cracking the black stone; the diary as a Horcrux was similarly destroyed simply by puncturing it. Nothing complicated.

It’s true that the killing curse didn’t work as Voldemort expected because of the “ancient magic” protecting Harry due to Lily’s sacrifice, but that’s another reason for me to reject Harrycrux or Scarcrux. It was ancient magic that protected Harry. So thematically, it just doesn’t work that Lily’s sacrifice and the protection her death imparted on Harry somehow enabled part of Voldemort’s evil soul to enter her child. The mind/powers transfer does work with that ancient protective magic because Harry now has tools no other wizard possesses (the magical window in to Voldemort’s mind), tools that will enable him to vanquish the most evil wizard ever. A soul transfer would be a corruption of Lily’s sacrifice IMO.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Just letting you know I added a section toward the end of the essay with my response to this question. That's the value of having someone challenge your arguments.

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-10 12:55 am UTC (link)
While I don't think the soul piece getting embedded in the cut violates the simplicity rule (is it really that complex?), the point about the ancient magic and the value of Lily's sacrifice is spot on.

Harry as horcrux or not, I'm not 100% sold on Nagini as horcrux (though I'm much more willing to believe it after this essay).

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-10 01:32 am UTC (link)
While I don't think the soul piece getting embedded in the cut violates the simplicity rule (is it really that complex?), the point about the ancient magic and the value of Lily's sacrifice is spot on.

I don't think it's simple for two reasons:

1) Voldemort was casting an AK. That is made clear numerous times in the book and in Rowling's interviews, and as you pointed out in another comment, the AK is not a Horcrux-making spell. So it's a complication to begin with to explain how a piece of Voldemort's soul broke away and went to Harry.

2) I just can't pausibly see how that escaped soul fragment (since no spell caused it to escape or directed it afterwards) would embed itself in the sliver of damaged tissue on the edge of an open wound, but not enter Harry's body and not speed away behind the Veil.

3) And finally, I've never understood how the Scarcrux theory explains how Harry can speak Parseltongue when he needs to or to understand it effortlessly when he hears it unless what entered Harry at Godric's Hollow truly entered his body.

You might be interested to know that Merlin is giving me a hard time over on MuggleMatters.com.

I do know that Nagini as Horcrux is inexplicably unpopular. I don't understand that, either. For so many reasons, it just makes more sense to me that she is the "living" Horcrux.

As always, the interaction with you is first rate!

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[info]travisprinzi
2006-09-10 01:44 am UTC (link)
I think I'm more inclined to pause on this particular question - we simply don't know enough about horcrux creation to know whether this would be too complex.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that the soul piece hung out around the cut, waited for the scar to form, and entered the scar. It was part of the wound that healed over (again, if the scarcrux theory is true, which I'm doubting more and more).

Another question: If Voldemort was possessing Nagini that night and wasn't simply controlling her from one soul piece to another (which is why Dumbledore suspects he has so much control over her), how would any experiment Dumbledore did prove anything about horcruxes? Voldemort's possessing something doesn't make it a horcrux, obviously.

I'm just about finished writing a post about all this over at SoG. My interest in the subject has reawakened, and my previous conclusions rattled. Thanks a lot ;)

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-10 02:33 am UTC (link)
Another question: If Voldemort was possessing Nagini that night and wasn't simply controlling her from one soul piece to another (which is why Dumbledore suspects he has so much control over her), how would any experiment Dumbledore did prove anything about horcruxes? Voldemort's possessing something doesn't make it a horcrux, obviously.

Dumbledore wasn't dead sure about Nagini when he listed his Horcrux guesses to Harry; it was more a confident hunch, so we know that little silver instrument didn't give Dumbledore 100% certainty. It may have confirmed the possibility or even the likelihood of its being true given what Harry had reported. What does strike me is that although there were three actors involved (Harry, Voldemort, Nagini), the form was of a snake, not a person, and the form split in two when Dumbledore prompted it. Nagini is a snake and Voldemort is snakelike, so the most plausible explanation is that the divided smoke snakes did represent Voldemort and Nagini. The "in essence divided" I expect is pointing to "soul" because the soul is often described as an essence. That's all I can guess at there.

Dumbledore probably knows how much control Voldemort has over Nagini from things Snape has mentioned, which would inform Dumbledore's suspicions. We don't know when Voldemort got Nagini, but it's not likely she was with him during his exile in Albania (wouldn't he have mentioned it when he was talking about possessing snakes and small animals that didn't live long?), but Dumbledore knows her name and knows that Voldemort likes to keep her close, so he's getting that information from someone, and Snape is the spy.

I suspect Voldemort has MORE control over her as a Horcrux than he would have otherwise, and that goes for possession. When we read Harry's dream, Nagini wanted to strike Arthur right away but held back because there was work to do (an odd thing for a snake to be thinking)--so that was Voldemort controlling Nagini from inside during the possession.

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[info]mickeyhildrich
2008-08-11 01:48 pm UTC (link)
DUCWIM Do You See What I Mean. DUHWIH Do You Hear What I Hear. E E2EG Ear to Ear Grin EOD End of Discussion EOL End of Lecture ESAD Eat S* And Die ESAL Eat S* And Live ETLA Enhanced TLA F FAQ Frequently Asked Questions FIGMO Forget It, I've Got My Orders FIIN F* if I Know FITB Fill In the Blank FM Fine Magic FOAD F* off and Die FOAF Friend of a Friend FOAFOAG Father of a Friend of a Girlfriend FOAG Father of a Girlfriend FOT Full of Tripe FRZ Freakin' Religious Zealot FTASB Faster than a Speeding Bullet FTL Faster than Light FUA Frequently Used Acronyms FUBAR Fouled Up (.

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[info]hectorgisenaas
2008-08-06 06:08 am UTC (link)
I’m not sure if he’s comfortable with me sharing the theory here, since a group of us are working on it right now, but if he’s cool with that once it’s finished, I’ll post it here.

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[info]isidroshaffir
2008-08-11 07:54 pm UTC (link)
All of this makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Posted by Robin Varghese at PM | Permalink | Comments | TrackBack Walzer and Elshtain on Iraq and Just War In Dissent, Michael Walzer and Jean Bethke Elshtain debate just war and Iraq.

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[info]focusf1
2006-09-09 06:00 pm UTC (link)
2. Nevertheless, the "in essence divided" experiment is a very, very strong point in favor of Nagini-crux. Two different existences of Voldemort's soul, but in essence divided (one abiding in LV himself, one abiding in and controlling Nagini).

Or.... it could mean that Harry was an inadvertant Horcrux when attacked at Godric's Hollow up until the end of GoF when Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" comes into play.

By using Harry's blood for regeneration, could Voldemort not actually INADVERTANTLY now contain his soul again? Just some food for thought....

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[info]sectumsempraa
2006-09-09 03:31 am UTC (link)
wow, that really was quite convincing. I see that you have really thought about this a lot, and now I think even more than before that Nagini really might be a horcrux. I am so glad I read this:)

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[info]sscrewdriver
2006-09-09 03:35 am UTC (link)
Thanks for this essay, I enjoyed reading it very much, and I agree with most of it as well.

- I don't think Dumbledore would have told Harry he believes Nagini is a Horcrux if he didn't believe it. That would be pointless.
- Voldemorts circumstances were very perilous during GoF, so he might have made a Horcrux out of a living thing whereas otherwise he wouldn't have considered it
- Harry does dream that he IS Nagini, and he is connected somehow to Voldemort.

I liked your 'mothering' examples. Relationships with parents are incredibly important in the books - well they would be, they're about kids.

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[info]tunxeh
2006-09-09 03:44 am UTC (link)
Very interesting, and it's good to see someone defending this possibility — it seems to be unpopular far out of proportion to its likelihood. And also, very interesting catch re who killed Frank.

Dumbledore may have assumed Nagini had killed on Voldemort’s orders and eaten Frank Bryce’s body,

But since we know he was incorrect here, how much can we trust the rest of the line of reasoning that depends on this assumption?

Your own reasoning based on what Dumbledore didn't know, how dependant Voldemort was during the following year, makes up for the weakness of this part of the argument, anyway.

Voldemort is not likely to have entrusted Wormtail with Horcrux information, but he would have been able to turn Nagini into a Horcrux using Frank Bryce’s murder without Wormtail being any the wiser.

Would he? I don't think we've been shown what goes into the creation of a horcrux, whether it's a very showy ceremony or something quick and wordless.

the murder comes before the Horcrux is made rather than being an internal part of the Horcrux-making process

A very strong argument against the Harrycrux theories.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 04:23 am UTC (link)
"Dumbledore may have assumed Nagini had killed on Voldemort’s orders and eaten Frank Bryce’s body,

But since we know he was incorrect here, how much can we trust the rest of the line of reasoning that depends on this assumption?"


I'm reading Dumbledore's "error" as information from Rowling about the steps involved in Horcrux-making. What Dumbledore's assumption tells me, since Dumbledore has surely made a point of learning how Horcruxes are made and destroyed, is that it's a two-step process and the Horcrux can be made some time after the murder has occurred:

"...After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux."

So I do not see this as a reason to cast doubt on Dumbledore's Horcrux knowledge but rather a way to let us know what is involved in making one, and perhaps to confirm that the diary Horcrux was made with Moaning Myrtle's death (something I've seen doubted all over the place).

So this passage is telling me that Hepzibah's death by poisoning and Myrtle's death by the basilisk qualified as soul-splitting murders. And it also tells me that Riddle could have made the ring Horcrux from the triple Riddle homicide some time after those murders were committed since it would have been possible to make a Horcrux out of Nagini almost as an afterthought. In other words, a murderer doesn't have to have Horcrux-making in mind when committing a murder, but would be able to use the soul tear at a later time if the decision was made to make a Horcrux.

I don't think it would much matter whether the Horcrux-making ceremony were verbose or silent. Wormtail had to make that potion with unicorn blood, so he must have had to go out regularly, leaving Babymort alone for an hour or more. What would make a difference is if lots of physical work were involved, but there doesn't seem to be any reason why making a Horcrux out of Nagini would require it.

Thanks for reading and your thoughtful comments.

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[info]rosedemon
2006-09-09 05:01 am UTC (link)
Do you attend Flagler? Because if you do, my opinion of the school has gone up. Very good essay, as usual.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-09 05:03 am UTC (link)
No, I've been out of school for a long, long time. Thanks for the compliment!

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[info]focusf1
2006-09-09 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Great thoughts - a pet love of mine is this whole Nagini/Horcrux/Scar issue. They are all intertwined and mean SOMETHING! I have written an essay on the idea of Snakes and their relevance in terms of folklore to the HP series as well as linking this to scars and gleams of triumph at my LJ if you're interested.

I am satisfied with your explanation of "in essence divided" although when I was writing about it there were many avenues to take with these three words.

I hate to think that Harry may have been a Horcrux up until the end of GoF or still is one now, and I understand your point about Dumbledore's hints. Maybe we should believe the old man now and not have to look further into what he thinks beyond Nagini's status as a Horcrux. In any case if he actually believed Harry to be a Horcrux - do you think he would not tell him something that important in the process of setting his affairs in order for the whole of HBP? Dumbledore learned his lesson of witholding information from Harry in OoTP and became a true mentor to the boy in HBP. We can see the change in the relationship as Harry begins to ask more questions (thank the Lord!) and also debate with the Headmaster rather than believe everthing out of the old man's lips is gospel truth. We can see this clear as day when he challenges Dumbledore's belief in Snape before they go to the cave.

I believe Nagini is a good choice for a Horcrux simply because she fits in with all my ideas for identifying possible Horcruxes throughout the series. JKR has already said that Harry has accumulated and seen more throughout the series than he knows or gives himself credit for - therefore as we as readers see through Harry - we have seen it too. Cracked!

Once again well researched and put together. *adding to mems*

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-10 12:43 am UTC (link)
Thanks for sharing and the links. I love it that you connected Nagini to Bollywood movies! It's astounding how Rowling was able to select names and legends/folklore associated with those names and interweave them so perfectly with each other through six books. If I have a question about a character or creature, I always see if there's anything interesting about the name she gave them.

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[info]aloysiusweasley
2006-09-09 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Another great essay! I must say, I always look forward to a new essay from you, as I love reading them...
Anyhow, I'm not quite sold on the idea of Naginicrux, but you put me nearly there - I'm also worried one of Dumbledore's error will be in thinking Nagini is a horcrux (Though I'm still hoping it was his trust in Snape, but that's a whole 'nother story). I liked your "mothering" aspects - I hadn't looked at it that way, and I can see it now, thanks to your comprehensive explanation. I had been wondering about V.'s BabyMort body and how Nagini's venom had formed it (and what else went into it), as well as the comments about the 'unusual' snake venom in Arthur's wounds in St. Mungo's.

Also, great point about Frank Bryce's body - I'd thought that, too. :)

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[info]valis2
2006-09-10 12:35 am UTC (link)
Oh, very interesting! Very cool theories and thoughts, thank you for sharing.

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how to create a Horcrux
(Anonymous)
2007-04-07 05:15 pm UTC (link)
I found your blog from a link on Sword of Gryffindor and I really have enjoyed your comments. Your theories are well thought-out and fascinating.

I have to disagree about a rather minor point, however. You said you think it doesn't matter how the death is accomplished when the death will be used to create a Horcrux. I disagree. You made the comment that you think Dumbledore believed Babymort killed Bryce using Nagini -- why do you think that? I thought it was obvious he used an AK, though I admit I haven't gone back and looked it up. As for the death that 16-year-old Tom used to create the Diary, how do we know it was Myrtle? I've always thought it was when he killed his father and grandparents at the Riddle house the following summer. I think he abandoned his plan to use the Chamber while at Hogwarts because he realized the danger it presented to himself, of the school being closed and him being returned to the orphanage permanently. But nothing says he created the diary immediately. I think he did it that summer, when he killed the Riddles. This fits with the rest of your theory but requires the Horcrux-creator to personally perform a killing curse, rather than rely on commanding a magical beast to do it. I think this fits better with the idea that killing is such a horrible thing that it can tear your soul apart.

I'd like to know what you think. I hope you write more posts before the book comes out, I've enjoyed reading them.

Mrs. Lovegood

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Re: how to create a Horcrux
[info]felicitys_mind
2007-04-10 05:21 am UTC (link)
Here is what Dumbledore said (quoted at the beginning of the essay):

“As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux. She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enhances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certain likes to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth."

It's clear that he believed Voldemort used Nagini to kill Frank Bryce and then made a Horcrux with Bryce's murder. That's taken directly from the book, so I'm not guessing. Dumbledore knows how to make a Horcrux (we don't), so if he believed Voldemort's soul would have been torn had he used Nagini to kill Bryce, then we know it's possible to tear the soul by using a deadly snake he controlled as the murder weapon. The key to understanding Dumbledore's argument is to see that Voldemort controls Nagini, so Nagini is a weapon in Voldemort's hands.

Think about it. If Voldemort's soul would be torn by using a wand to cast an Avada Kedavra curse to kill Bryce, why wouldn't Voldemort's soul be torn if he used Nagini as a weapon to kill Bryce? In both scenarios Voldemort controls the weapon (wand or snake) and manipulates it so that it becomes the direct cause of death. In neither case does Voldemort kill Bryce with his bare hands. So since the Basilisk only acted on Tom Riddle's orders, it was a weapon used by Riddle to kill Moaning Myrtle (recall the way Riddle ordered the Basilisk to kill Harry in the Chamber of Secrets); hence Myrtle's murder tore Tom Riddle's soul.

Thanks for posting!

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[info]entomologist
2009-04-26 06:37 am UTC (link)
Interesting essay; I just found it on the Lexicon, while checking up on exactly when Nagini was made into a Horcrux. (It's one of the very, very few details from the first six books the author of the astonishing fan-fic Harry Potter and the Nightmares of Futures Past got wrong, and I was commenting on it in a review of one chapter of that fic where the Horcruxes are enumerated.) As it turned out, you were partly right: Nagini was indeed a Horcrux, but that didn't mean that there wasn't an accidental Harrycrux, as well. What I found most interesting, though, is that Travis commented (and you apparently believed this as well, if I'm not misreading your essay) that "JKR has entirely shot down the idea that Voldemort ended up, without realizing it, creating 7 Horcruxes instead of 6. Several theories I've recently read are entirely annihilated with this." If JKR did indeed do that, she was flat-out lying -- that's exactly what she revealed that Voldemort had done at the end of Deathly Hallows. Now, Joss Whedon has been known to do that to his fans (he famously denied that Tara was going to die when the episode where she does was already filmed), but I'd never heard of JKR messing with her fandom's heads that way.

As to the other points made, we know now that Dumbledore hid the knowledge of the Scarcrux/Harrycrux (I don't think there's a practical difference, really, the scar is part of Harry) from Harry because its existence meant that Harry had to die for Voldemort to be defeated, and letting Harry know that too soon might have made him rebel and try to flee the country or, potentially just as bad, give up the Horcrux-hunt in favor of trying to defeat death by acquiring the Hallows (as he briefly did anyway). Dumbledore likewise didn't reveal that Harry wouldn't die (because of his blood being used to revive Voldemort) because it was Harry's willing sacrifice, his intent to die, that effectively defanged Voldemort, giving the same protection Harry had from his mother to the entire Wizarding World. (The more I think about the ending of DH, the more parallels I see to the Christos myth.)

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