felicitys_mind ([info]felicitys_mind) wrote,
@ 2006-07-22 03:44:00
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Entry tags:aunt muriel, fortescue, gryffindor, horcrux, ravenclaw, tiara

“Something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s”

“Something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s”
 
We saw in HBP that Hepzibah Smith was distantly related to Helga Hufflepuff and that Hufflepuff’s gold cup was in her possession. We also saw that Salazar Slytherin’s line ends with T.M. Riddle/Lord Voldemort through the Gaunt family, which was in possession of Slytherin’s gold locket and a Slytherin family heirloom, the Peverell ring. But we haven’t been given direct information identifying the family or families that descend from Rowena Ravenclaw or Godric Gryffindor.
 
I have a hunch that the Fortescues are in the Ravenclaw bloodline and that Florean Fortescue’s disappearance has something to do with a Ravenclaw founder relic or family heirloom.  I also have a hunch that Great-Auntie Muriel’s goblin-made tiara is part of the story.
 
The Fortescue/Ravenclaw Connection:
 
The majority of portraits of dead headmasters and headmistresses in Dumbledore's office hardly ever speak and only a few are described in any detail. I've skimmed the books looking for passages involving these portraits, and mostly they are noted as snoozing or snoring with no other details given. Unless a portrait has a plot function, Rowling doesn't zoom in on them, and the more important they are, the more fully they are described. 
 
In the scene following Harry’s dream of the snake attack on Arthur in OP22, Dumbledore wanted Phineas to ask Sirius if the Weasley children could stay at 12 Grimmauld Place, but Phineas first pretended to be asleep and then balked at running the errand. Several portraits spoke in that scene:
 
Harry recognized Armando Dippet from the diary memory; Dippet was described in this scene as a frail-looking wizard who reminded Phineas that portraits are honor-bound to serve the present headmaster. He was spotted once more.
 
An unnamed gimlet-eyed witch holding a wand similar to a birch rod asked Dumbledore if he wanted her to persuade Phineas.
 
Phineas was described as a clever-looking wizard with a pointed beard who was painted wearing the Slytherin colors of green and silver standing behind a Slytherin banner. Harry recognized his voice as being the same one that spoke to him at the beginning of OP from the empty portrait in his bedroom at 12 Grimmauld Place. Phineas made snarky comments in other scenes in OP and snorted in disrespect when Dumbledore agreed to take Harry to the cave in HBP.
 
Everard was described as a sallow-faced wizard with short, black bangs who was painted in front of a velvet backdrop; he went to his other portrait in the Ministry of Magic to sound the alarm for Arthur. He made a return appearance at the end of HBP to tell McGonagall that the MoM had received the news of Dumbledore’s death and would be arriving shortly.
 
Dilys was described as an elderly witch with long silver ringlets who was painted on a handsome leather armchair; she went to her other portrait at St. Mungo’s to see Arthur being taken in weak but alive. She later winked at Harry from her portrait at St. Mungo’s and appeared to be counting the Weasley children as they walked past on their way to visit Arthur.
 
One additional portrait was highlighted in this scene. The wizard in the portrait isn’t named in this scene, but the “corpulent, red-nosed” wizard was highlighted three times in OP and once in HBP. It appears that the corpulent, red-nosed wizard in all of the scenes is Headmaster Fortescue.
 
In OP, when Phineas appeared reluctant to visit Sirius to ask if the Weasleys could stay with him to be near St. Mungo’s:
 
“Insubordination, Sir!" roared a corpulent, red-nosed wizard, brandishing his fists. "Dereliction of duty!" (OP22, p. 473)
 
In OP, when Harry was being confronted in Dumbledore’s office after the DA’s meeting had been raided, it was learned that Willy Widdershins overheard the first DA meeting at the Hog’s Head and reported it to Umbridge to avoid being prosecuted for causing toilets to regurgitate:
 
"Blatant corruption!" roared the portrait of the corpulent, red-nosed wizard on the wall behind Dumbledore's desk. "The ministry did not cut deals with petty criminals in my day, no sir, they did not!"
 
"Thank you, Fortescue, that will do," said Dumbledore. (OP27, p. 614)
 
At the end of OP, when Dumbledore sent Harry back to his office alone using a portkey, the wizard spoke to him again:
 
"I hope this means," said the corpulent, red-nosed wizard who hung on the wall behind Dumbledore's desk, "that Dumbledore will soon be back with us?"
 
Harry turned. The wizard was surveying him with great interest. Harry nodded. [snip]
 
"Oh good," said the wizard. "It has been very dull without him, very dull indeed."
 
He settled himself on the thronelike chair on which he had been painted and smiled benignly upon Harry.
 
"Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as I am sure you know," he said comfortably. "Oh yes. Holds you in great esteem." (OP37, p. 822)
 
In HBP, after Harry and Dumbledore reviewed the Horcrux memory Harry had just obtained from Slughorn, the wizard was again highlighted trying to hear their very interesting conversation about Horcruxes:
 
“Harry suddenly noticed that every single one of the old headmasters and headmistresses in the portraits around the walls was awake and listening in on their conversation. A corpulent, red-nosed wizard had actually taken out an ear trumpet.” (HBP23, p. 499)
 
This portrait of Headmaster Fortescue interests me for several reasons:
 
*Rowling doesn’t describe the appearance of a particular headmaster or headmistress or throw the spotlight on them more than once in any meaningful way unless they have a function in the story. Phineas, Dilys, and Everard are minor characters but they provided important information as errand-runners during critical moments. Headmaster Fortescue has been mentioned four times, yet he doesn’t have an obvious purpose in the story relative to the attention Rowling has given him.
 
*Fortescue is described as corpulent and red-nosed, a description close to the "corpulent, red-cheeked" complexion and body type associated in the medieval theory of humours with the element of air. Rowling assigned the element of air to Ravenclaw. According to one website, the personality traits associated with this humour are amorous, happy, generous, optimistic, and courageous, which fits with the characters of the Headmaster Fortescue and his probable descendant Florean Fortescue, owner of the Diagon Alley ice cream parlor.
 
*Fortescue is a surname with a known date of origin. Sir Richard Le Forte was a leader in the Norman army at Hastings. He protected Duke William ("the Conqueror") by holding a large shield or escu in front of him. When William prevailed, Sir Richard changed his surname to Richard Fort Escu, which means “strong shield.” Richard’s son was granted lands in Devon by a grateful William for the family’s distinguished service to him, making the family instant landed aristocracy in England. The year (1066) was fewer than 100 years after the founding of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.
 
*Headmaster Fortescue was painted sitting on a “thronelike chair,” which seems to hint that he was a member of a noble family. I can’t help but think of the Noble House of Gaunt, which referred to Slytherin’s line. Assuming the Fortescues are in Ravenclaw’s direct bloodline, we see that Ravenclaw’s line didn’t descend into the psychopathic squalor of Slytherin’s, but Florean Fortescue is a small business owner, not a member of the aristocracy. And true to Ravenclaw House’s reputation for having the most intelligent students, Florean is a scholar even though he made ice cream for a living. 
 
*Florean Fortescue helped Harry with his History of Magic homework at the beginning of Prizoner of Azkaban when Harry was staying at the Leaky Cauldron. Florean knew a great deal about medieval witch hunts and burnings and also gave Harry free ice cream sundaes every 30 minutes. Early in Half-Blood Prince, Bill Weasley reported that Florean had been dragged off by Death Eaters from the look of his ice cream place. Florean was described as a good man who must have done something to upset them.
 
*The portrait of Headmaster Fortescue is directly behind Dumbledore’s desk. On a shelf above Dumbledore’s desk is the Sorting Hat, and next to the Sorting Hat is a glass case holding Godric Gryffindor’s sword. These are the only two known Gryffindor relics, and Horcruxes are largely about relics of the four founders of Hogwarts. In the HBP chapter in which Harry and Dumbledore reviewed Slughorn’s true Horcrux memory, Rowling focused on only one portrait—Headmaster Fortescue—who pulled out an ear trumpet to better hear their interesting conversation. 
 
*I believe the placement of the Fortescue portrait near the Gryffindor relics, the physical description of Headmaster Fortescue linking him to the element of air, and the thronelike chair on which Headmaster Fortescue was painted are hints that the Fortescues are in Rowena Ravenclaw’s bloodline. 
 
The Weasley/Gryffindor Connection
 
This one is much easier since there are plenty of clues to tie the Weasleys to Godric Gryffindor and they're all on the surface. The pure-blood Weasleys are predictably sorted into Gryffindor house, they have the red-hair and choleric temperament associated in medieval humour theory with the element of fire (choleric people are sometimes called bilious, and Ron mentioned having an Uncle Bilius), there are several links to the Weasleys and ferocious, fire-breathing animals (Charlie works with dragons, Bill wears dragon-skin boots, the twins wear dragon-skin jackets), and most importantly, they have royal/Arthurian names (Arthur, William, Charles, Percy Ignatius, George, Frederick, Ronald, and Ginevra). But this doesn’t mean that only the Weasleys are descended from Gryffindor, and I have a hunch that when Rowling seemed to agree (hesitantly) in an interview that Harry was not the Heir of Gryffindor, she meant he wasn’t the last surviving heir as Tom Riddle is Slytherin’s last surviving heir. (There’s still room for Harry to be in the Gryffindor’s bloodline. James and Lily were living in Godric’s Hollow after all. But I have a hunch—prompted by Charles Potter’s marriage to Dorea Black on the BFT—that Harry may somehow carry the blood of all four founders. That would tie into the Sorting Hat’s songs about house unity because Harry does need to be the unifier in this fractured world. However, it would mean that a Slytherin male had fathered an illegitimate child at some point since both Dumbledore and Voldemort believed Tom Marvolo Riddle to be the last of the line.)
 
So where’s the connection?
 
The only two times tiaras were mentioned in the six books occurred in the last few chapters of HBP: Harry used a tarnished tiara to mark the hiding spot for the Prince’s textbook in the Room of Requirement and Molly mentioned her Great-Auntie Muriel’s goblin-made tiara. In the absence of any other strong clues to point the way, a tiara is the best candidate for the object of the mystery Horcrux. Is it possible that Great-Auntie Muriel could own Rowena Ravenclaw’s tiara and not know its provenance (I don’t think Godric Gryffindor would have worn a tiara)? That seems unlikely. Yet Great-Auntie Muriel’s goblin-made tiara is interesting because Tom Riddle was visiting Hepzibah Smith to make an improved offer on her goblin-made armor, so maybe the “goblin-made” reference is a clue that we should be paying attention to this tiara. I can’t think of anything else in the books referred to as goblin-made. “Goblin-made” suggests it’s old and valuable, so it could be a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor family heirloom without being a true founder relic (just as the Peverell ring was a Slytherin family heirloom but not a true Slytherin relic).  And since Ravenclaw was also described as "fair," a beautiful adornment like a tiara that would encircle the mind is a very plausible Ravenclaw relic even it pertains to her decendants and not to Rowena herself
 
In the Horcrux hunt, we’re looking for “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s,” which seems to imply that it will be one or the other, but what if that phrase is itself a clue that the Horcrux will be both in some way? Just because the Slytherin line petered out into one remaining person (Riddle/Voldemort) doesn’t mean the same is true of either the Gryffindor or Ravenclaw bloodlines. For all we know, Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw each had five children and each child founded a series of multi-branching families over the last 1,000 years. The pure-blood families are all related to each other as we’ve been told and as we can see from a little bit of Black ancestry from the Black Family Tree. Molly’s reference to “our” Great-Auntie Muriel, might be suggesting that both Molly and Arthur have blood ties (however distant) to Muriel. After all, Hepzibah Smith only claimed to be distantly related to Helga Hufflepuff, not the last of her line as Marvolo claimed the Gaunts to be.
 
We don’t know how Muriel is related to Molly and Arthur, but since Ginny is the first Weasley daughter to be born in several generations (surely a clue for something in the story and we haven’t seen anything yet), it’s not a long-shot that Muriel married a Weasley, and it’s entirely possible that Muriel was a Fortescue. We’ve heard enough times that all the old wizarding families are related to each other, and Muriel as a Fortescue Ravenclaw married to a Weasley Gryffindor would help us to solve the identity of the mystery Horcrux, which, in a way, would be “something of Ravenclaw’s and Gryffindor’s.” If the relation between Arthur and Molly to Florean Fortescue is fairly distant, then we wouldn’t have necessarily heard about it even when Florean’s disappearance was being discussed in the Weasley kitchen. They never discuss Septimus Weasley’s marriage into the Black family even though Sirius and his relatives are discussed often enough. I’d say it’s a fair shot that the goblin-made tiara has connections to both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw bloodlines. 
 
So where could this be going?
 
Aren’t we looking for “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s” that was made into a Horcrux a long time ago? Not necessarily. We know Voldemort had the Peverell ring, diary, Hufflepuff cup, and Slytherin locket Horcruxes under his belt by circa 1947-48.  And we know Dumbledore believed Voldemort was planning to make his sixth Horcrux at Godric’s Hollow, but Dumbledore was making an educated guess and didn’t pretend to be certain about that. We frankly have no idea when Voldemort made the fifth Horcrux or even if he had made five Horcruxes by October 31, 1981. 
 
Theory 1. Certainly someone in the family would have noticed if a valuable heirloom had gone missing years ago.  But if the goblin-made tiara is a Ravenclaw family heirloom, and Voldemort learned about it years ago and turned it into a Horcrux, does it necessarily follow that he stole it from the family? He did indeed steal away the locket, cup, and ring but perhaps he considered that his next Horcrux would be safest left with the family guarding it. Suspicion fell on him when Hepzibah Smith’s most prized relics were discovered missing and the young man from Borgin and Burkes who had been shown them only days before her death had promptly disappeared after her death. Hokey took the blame for Hepzibah’s death, but the theft of the cup and locket was an unsolved crime. Voldemort knew from Hepzibah that her family would never sell the cup, so maybe he reasoned that an heirloom Horcrux like the tiara would be best protected if he left it where it was.  Once he had taken the cup, ring, and locket, he needed to find safe places to hide them. By leaving the tiara in place, he eliminated the problem of finding a hiding place for it but still could be assured of its safety; moreover, if he managed to turn it into a Horcrux without anyone in the family catching on, no one would ever suspect what he had done to it.
 
So why then would Florean Fortescue need to be hauled off by Death Eaters in 1996? Perhaps Voldemort decided he wanted to put the tiara Horcrux in another location or check on it and learned that it had been moved, so he needed a family member to get it, and Florean Fortescue was easy to grab because he was out in the open in Diagon Alley. But that begs the question: why would Voldemort care that it had moved to another family member so long as it was still in the family and protected? And from a plot point of view, this theory is problematic because Harry has to find and destroy the Horcruxes before confronting Voldemort, and he won’t be able to do that if Voldemort had already started shifting them to new locations at the beginning of HBP.  On the other hand, perhaps he did check the locations of his Horcruxes in the summer of 1996 just to be sure they were still where he left them, and he discovered that the tiara had been transferred to a new keeper (he could have known just by looking in the cave that the green potion was untouched, so he wouldn't have needed to empty the basin and see the actual locket.).
 
Theory 2. An alternative theory is that Voldemort made a seventh Horcrux with the death of Amelia Bones and forced Florean to get the tiara kept by Muriel to use for this new Horcrux. I do believe with others that Voldemort is so dehumanized at this point that he could only make another Horcrux at great cost to himself, but he does place great importance on the magical power of seven and knew the diary has been destroyed. He might want another Horcrux to replace the diary.  On the other hand, the soul fragment from the diary wasn't destroyed but merely released from its anchor and probably went behind the Veil, so his soul was still in seven parts despite the destruction of the diary Horcrux.  The only difference is that one fragment is no longer anchored to the earth. But the main problem with this theory is that Harry would have to figure out that there’s an additional Horcrux out there. If Molly asks to borrow the goblin-made tiara for Bill and Fleur’s wedding, and Muriel discovers it’s missing but was last seen shortly before Florean disappeared, the trio may put it together quickly and realize that Fortescue was snatched to get a “trophy” item from Ravenclaw’s family line.  One additional Horcrux would not be a super complication, but if the tiara is Horcrux #7, then that leaves us still trying to identify the “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s” mystery Horcrux.  Rowling has a lot of ground to cover in Book 7 with the Horcrux hunt, Horcrux destruction, expected warfare with giants, werewolves, goblins, elves, Dementors, wizards, etc., ultimate confrontation with Voldemort, backstory to fill about Dumbledore, Lily, James, etc., and an extra Horcrux would be an unnecessary distraction and page-eater, so it's not likely to happen. 
 
Theory 3. However, what if Voldemort had only made five Horcruxes when he entered Godric’s Hollow in 1981, and he made the sixth Horcrux with the goblin-made tiara in 1996? If he made the cup and locket Horcruxes in the late 1940’s and planned to make his last Horcrux from Harry’s death in 1981 per Dumbledore’s guess, he was not in a rush to get seven Horcruxes made early on, so it is not a given that he had made #5 before 1981. Maybe he planned to use Harry’s death to make Horcrux #5, not #6. This scenario would mean that there would still only be six Horcruxes in total, three of them destroyed, and the “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s” will be easy to identify if indeed the Ravenclaw heirloom goblin-made tiara is found to be missing early in Book 7 and Florean’s disappearance turns out to be near the time it was last seen (so the trio will be able to put it all together). Rowling did say in an interview that on the subject of the remaining Horcruxes, Dumbledore’s guesses were not very far wide of the mark, and there is nothing about a Ravenclaw Horcrux made in 1996 to contradict that statement or Dumbledore’s guesswork. So if the “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s” is the goblin-made tiara, then the mystery Horcrux will be relatively easy to identify. Whether it will be easy to locate is another question unless it was placed for temporary safe-keeping in the Room of Requirement and Harry inadvertently used it to mark the location of his textbook.
 
This may seem too pat, but Rowling is in the home stretch now, and she has to connect plot threads in order to pull everything together in one final book, so for plotting economy, there is reason for Great-Auntie Muriel’s goblin-made tiara and the tiara in the Room of Requirement to be the same tiara. What better place to store the tiara than in a magical room the size of a Cathedral containing thousands and thousands of motley objects hidden there by generations of Hogwarts staff, students, and castle elves? According to Ravenclaw’s Famous Wizard card, she is best remembered for her intelligence and creativity and is thought to have developed the school’s ever-changing floor plan. She sounds like a good candidate to have developed the school’s ever-changing magical room as well, so wouldn’t there be a nice little tie-in with a Ravenclaw Horcrux hidden in an extraordinary room that Rowena created? 
 
Whether the goblin-made tiara is a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor or both heirloom remains to be seen, but the plot lines will be knitting together in Book 7, and many of us expect Fleur and Bill's wedding will be marred in some disastrous way.  The discovery that the tiara the bride was to wear is missing could be a foreshadowing of this.



(52 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]moonwitch
2006-07-22 08:04 am UTC (link)
Ah, this is written so well and I find myself agreeing with many of your theories. In particular, the Harry-descended-from-all-founders theory and the theory that the Room of Requirement was made by Rowena Ravenclaw. It will definitely be interesting to see how Rowling is going to fit everything into the last book. :)

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Can't wait for the last book!

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(no subject) - [info]meep, 2006-07-28 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]meep, 2006-07-28 08:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felicitys_mind, 2006-07-28 08:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felicitys_mind, 2006-07-28 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meep, 2006-07-28 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felicitys_mind, 2006-07-29 12:08 am UTC

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[info]iris_cloudscape
2006-07-22 09:58 am UTC (link)
Or when preparing for the wedding, Ginny might try it on.

Having experience with the diary, she might recognise it.
Offcourse that would be to easy .

The idea of something you put on your head (where your mind is) that has a piece of Voldemorts soul in it is terrifying. At least with a diary you have to read/write.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 07:24 pm UTC (link)
That's an interesting possibility. My thought is that the Diary was specially enchanted to enable it to possess the person writing in it (that's what made it a weapon in addition to being a Horcrux). The ability of a soul fragment to leave the object it's encased in merely by being worn or handled would, I think, defeat the purpose of a "plain" Horcrux, which is to stay in its object to permanently anchor the soul fragment to the earth. If the tiara is a Horcrux and the soul fragment goes into the person who puts it on, then the fragment has been tranferred to a mortal shell and will be destroyed when that person dies.

It may be that there is some kind of spell that can be used to determine if an object is a Horcrux, but if not, my guess is that a Horcrux can only be identified by detective work. Many people tried to open the heavy gold locket at 12GP without suffering harm, and nether Ginny nor Harry sensed any special connection to it (that we heard about).

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(no subject) - [info]ilcylic, 2006-09-24 05:56 pm UTC

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(Reply from suspended user)
I'm sorry, I haven't your email -
[info]wemyss
2006-07-22 01:01 pm UTC (link)
- That being the better vehicle for trifling corrections; absent email, I've no alternative but to nudge you in public, and remind you that William the Conqueror and William of Orange are two very different people indeed. And it's 'Bilius' and 'Ignatius', sans the 'o'.

I mention all this because I should hate to see such minor slips of the keyboard detract from an otherwise quite clever essay.

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Re: I'm sorry, I haven't your email -
[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 02:22 pm UTC (link)
Not at all. Thank you pointing out the errors.

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[info]emurphy42
2006-07-22 03:28 pm UTC (link)

On a shelf above Dumbledore’s desk is the Sorting Hat, and next to the Sorting Hat is a glass case holding Godric Gryffindor’s sword. These are the only two known Gryffindor relics, and Horcruxes are largely about relics of the four founders of Hogwarts.



the Gryffindor Horcruxes


JKR has explicitly stated that the Sorting Hat isn't one. The sword from CoS seems unlikely, but what are your thoughts for/against - and do we know whether the sword in that glass case is the one from CoS? I've seen a write-up (possibly in this community, within the past month?) to the effect that Godric's ceremonial sword from CoS wasn't, but his everyday-use sword could be.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 04:11 pm UTC (link)
That was a typo that I just corrected; it should have read Gryffindor relics, not Gryffindor Horcruxes (thanks for catching it!). I don't believe the Gryffindor relics in Dumbledore's office are Horcruxes. As you noted, Rowling took the Hat off the table in an interview, and Dumbledore seems confident that the sword couldn't have been made into one.

Harry entered Dumbledore's office for the first time in CS12; he saw the Sorting Hat on the shelf behind Dumbledore's desk, but didn't mention seeing a sword in a glass case. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, but we have no evidence that it was. So where was the ruby-encrusted sword before Harry took it from the Sorting Hat? I don't know. Dumbledore may have known where it was; at least, I don't recall Dumbledore hedging at all when he told Harry it could not have been made into a Horcrux. So for me, the ruby-encrusted sword is off the table as a Horcrux suspect.

I've never heard about an everyday Gryffindor sword, but I do know that Rowling is playing by the rules with regard to the mystery/detective aspect of her story, and that means that she has to give us enough clues to be able to solve the mystery. Books 6 and 7 work as a unit, so we don't have all the clues yet to make an airtight case for any at-large Horcruxes, but I am personally convinced that we've seen all the Horcruxes somewhere in the first six books. They will be so buried that we won't easily spot them (like the heavy gold locket at 12 Grimmauld Place that will likely turn out to be the AWOL Slytherin locket), but we have seen them all, even the mystery Horcrux.

I don't recall reading about an everyday-use sword previously owned by Godric Gryffindor. If an object is mentioned somewhere in the series, then it's a Horcrux candidate, but if it's not mentioned anywhere in the first six books, then it's not going to lead to a Horcrux IMHO. It's not enough to presume that Gryffindor had a sword for everyday use (we can think of hundreds of things that the founders may have owned, after all); Rowling has to let us either see it (like the tarnished tiara Harry picked up in the RoR) or hear about it from one of the characters (like Great-Auntie Muriel's goblin-made tiara) if she's playing by the rules. She hasn't cheated in the books to date, and I can't see her starting now. So for me, the only viable theories for the mystery Horcrux will be based on an object that has already been mentioned in one of the books. That's why I zoomed in on the goblin-made tiara since the implication is that it's a valuable old heirloom connected to a pure-blood family.

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[info]ion_bond
2006-07-22 05:45 pm UTC (link)
Very clever! I like how you account for the practical -- that this is a book, and the last book in the series -- in your theories.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. I'm glad you took the time to read it (I was dying to share it!).

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[info]tsosh
2006-07-22 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Brilliant! I love your theory - it makes sense, it fits Rowling's style, and it ties things together very nicely. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

I prefer theory 3.
Maybe the trio would go back to the RoR to retrieve the Potions book, see the tiara there, and decide to take it and bring it to Fleur (because she would be upset after finding out Muriel's tiara is missing). And then Molly would see it's the same one... I don't know, just a possibility.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-22 07:12 pm UTC (link)
"Maybe the trio would go back to the RoR to retrieve the Potions book, see the tiara there, and decide to take it and bring it to Fleur (because she would be upset after finding out Muriel's tiara is missing). And then Molly would see it's the same one... I don't know, just a possibility."

Very clever. I feel in my gut that the Wedding is going to be involved in the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor Mystery Horcrux plot line, but I couldn't think of a way to connect them. Your theory would certainly work.

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[info]herminia
2006-07-22 07:50 pm UTC (link)
Mmm... I was sort of thinking along these same lines and was going to use the tiara for the Gryff-and-Ravenclaw Horcrux in my fanfic. Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on this - it was interesting to read!

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[info]lavinialavender
2006-07-23 01:50 am UTC (link)
Oh, wow - amazing essay, best I've read in a while. Particularly the first half - am absolutely convinced about the importance of Fortescue's portrait.

*memories*

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[info]verseblack
2006-07-23 01:51 am UTC (link)
Just have to say how much I enjoyed this essay, particularly the part about Headmaster Fortescue. I am fascinated by the portraits (Phineas is one of my very favorite characters!). Adding this essay to my memories :)

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[info]smithycal
2006-07-23 09:59 am UTC (link)
Brilliant essay, very analytical and thought provoking. The idea of Fotescue didn't ever enter my mind, but now it has I find myself agreeing with you profusely. I wonder how JK Rowling, whatever the final plot, is going to tie up all the loose ends in the space of 500-600 pages.

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[info]dream_labyrinth
2006-07-23 10:40 am UTC (link)
Very interesting! I particularly like the idea of Harry being descendant of all four founders.
His connection to Voldemort, though not a blood connection, is obvious, as he feels what Voldemort feels.
When Harry used Godric's sword to kill the basilisk, Dumbledore said only a Gryffindor could have pulled it out of the hat - this might mean somebody who was rightfully sorted into Gryffindor, or somebody of the Gryffindor family line.

Your ideas about Fortescue really convinced me. But I seem to remember that it isn't entirely certain Florean Fortescue was kidnapped by the DEs. Couldn't he just have gone into hiding and made it look as if they got him, like Slughorn tried when Dumbledore came to find him? Pretending to be dead might seem the best way to keep out of trouble, especially if he is a direct descendant of Rowena Ravenclaw. Even if he doesn't know about the Horcruxes, he might have enough reason to think Voldemort might have an interest in him.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-23 01:48 pm UTC (link)
"Your ideas about Fortescue really convinced me. But I seem to remember that it isn't entirely certain Florean Fortescue was kidnapped by the DEs. Couldn't he just have gone into hiding and made it look as if they got him, like Slughorn tried when Dumbledore came to find him? Pretending to be dead might seem the best way to keep out of trouble, especially if he is a direct descendant of Rowena Ravenclaw. Even if he doesn't know about the Horcruxes, he might have enough reason to think Voldemort might have an interest in him."

That is certainly a possibility. My interpretation of what happened to Fortescue was in part comparing his disappearance to Ollivander's. Ollivander seemed to have packed up leaving an empty shop behind whereas Fortescue appeared to have been dragged off.

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(Anonymous)
2006-07-24 10:41 pm UTC (link)
Hi Maureen,
This is Merlin from mugglematters.com

Interesting. I am not as adept at the detective work as I am at more of the symbolism type stuff but it all seems to make sense (the detection work seems good to me . I particularly liked the stuf on the Fortescue and Fortean). Only 2 things came to mind.

1. The Vanishing Cabinet as the way For Voldy to get back in to plant the tiara - he probably would have discovered it while working at Borgin and Bourkes. I had thought of this before, such as the question of when the cabinet's got broken (which might affect the idea of when the HC was made from the tiara and when it got put there and whether Fortean was involved in the process) ... I personally think that Voldy was the one who broke the cabinet, that he returned to the school while working at B&B and broke it on his final trip.

2. I think a good thing to look for would be tips in the part where Harry uses the tiara as a marker in the room, since the cave "Dumbledore" (leaving open gumshoes option of it really being Sluggo) notes "traces of known magic" in the hiding of the locket Horcrux in the lake.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-25 12:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks for reading and for your comments, Merlin. I posted a link to your website over on HogPro so that those of us not going to Lumos can follow it through your posts.

1. Voldemort could certainly have used the cabinets if both were in place when he was a student and/or working for Borgin and Burkes, but the cabinet at Hogwarts was broken in Chamber of Secrets when Sir Nicholas convinced Peeves to drop it to distract Filch:

"As Filch lowered his quill, there was a great BANG! on the ceiling of the office, which made the oil lamp rattle.... Harry didn't much like Peeves, but couldn't help feeling grateful for his timing. Hopefully, whatever Peeves had done (and it sounded as though he'd wrecked something very big this time) would distract Filch from Harry.... Filch was looking triumphant. 'That vanishing cabinet was extremely valuable!' he was saying gleefully to Mrs. Norris. 'We'll have Peeves out this time, my sweet--'" [Chamber, 126-128, snipped].

2. There is that bit about traces of known magic . . . I wish Dumbledore had actually let Harry try to perceive it when they were in the cave. I'm not a fan of Gumshoe's argument for at least a dozen reasons posted over on HogPro. The history was brilliant since Slughorn is a very theatrical illusionist, but he's not a heroic figure at all. If anything, the set-ups for Slughorn suggest to me that he'll betray someone in Book 7 to save his own skin. I do believe Dumbledore's little "Oho!" might be a hint that Dumbledore took a shot of Felic Felicis before going to the cave. The little interjection would be a clue to this, would explain Dumbledore's halting-intuitive movements through the cave, and would explain how Dumbledore knew the poison wouldn't kill him immediately (just as Felix had "told" Harry that Slughorn wouldn't remember their conversation the next day).

Looking forward to reading more of your website!

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when the cabinet got broken - (Anonymous), 2006-09-11 12:22 pm UTC

[info]professor_mum
2006-07-28 01:57 am UTC (link)
This is a great essay, particularly the idea that all 4 house flow through Harry. I will ponder that thought for a long while.

All of your Fortescue cannon is just great. I think there is actually even one more tidbit along these lines. We view DD's memory of a "Florence" who Bertha Jorkins was spying on. She saw Florence kiss someone and a hex was thrown at her, by the boy, it seems. I have this feeling that Florence could easily be the ice cream parlor owner's daughter, at Hogwarts. I also have a theory of the boy. Why this memory needed to be tucked into the pensive, is the rub.....

Separately, if you read through DD's discussion, it goes structurally like this: The Horcrux is either from House A or House B and I have the only House A item right behind me. So, this logic convinces me that we are on the prowl for a Ravenclaw item. Someone else has suggested the tiara. I am aligned behind the Opal necklace right now, but anyone has an entire year to try and change my mind...

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-28 02:16 am UTC (link)
Thanks, Professor Mum.

I love the idea that the blood of all four founders flows in Harry's veins for thematic reasons, but it's not without its problems---namely that the Gaunts were convinced that they were the end of the line. So for Harry to carry Slytherin's blood, a Slytherin descendent (it seems) would have to have fathered an illegitimate child that is one of Harry's ancestors. So I like the idea, but I'm not so sure it can be defended.

John Granger brought up the opal necklace possibility on HogPro a few weeks ago, and this was my response:

"The necklace doesn’t work for me. I know it’s silver with greenish opals (Slytherin colors), but it’s not a relic of Salazar Slytherin. Riddle already had one genuine Slytherin relic (locket) and one Slytherin family heirloom (Peverell ring) when he left Borgin and Burkes at age 20 or so. He got those relatively easily. We believe he waited decades to make the last Horcrux (which should have been with Harry’s death), so I don’t see him grabbing items just to have seven Horcruxes. Plus the necklace was openly displayed for sale and advertised as having killed 19 Muggles to date, and there was no telling if the MoM would confiscate it and destroy it for that reason. There were passages in the book referring to historical and contemporary efforts to strengthen Muggle protection legislation. It’s interesting, but no."

I think the colors alone (silver and greenish) rule it out as a Ravenclaw relic, and Rowling has said Dumbledore's Horcrux guesses are not very far wide of the mark, so if we're looking for a Ravenclaw relic, I have to cross the opal necklace off the list.

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(no subject) - [info]felicitys_mind, 2006-07-28 02:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]professor_mum, 2006-07-28 03:16 am UTC

[info]professor_mum
2006-07-28 02:33 am UTC (link)
When Katie accidentally touched the necklace, she rose into the air, and JKR described her ascent as "bird like". Both ravens and opals are considered unlucky. The opal is sometimes referred to as the 'eye stone' (ravens have sharp vision) or the 'thieves stone' (ravens are attracted to bright shiny objects). Ravenclaw, is known as the brainy and pretty house. It sat in B/B for ages and it is doubtful that anyone even touched it given the card description attached. Tom could have easily turned it into a Horcrux while employed there, hiding it in plain sight for all these years. I am sure Borgin was glad to see the thing gone.

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-07-28 02:59 am UTC (link)
I agree that Riddle could have turned it into a Horcrux while he was there, I'm just questioning whether he would have since he was looking for founders' relics and the necklace has no provenance (I assume B&B would have mentioned one to increase the price even more). He was only 20 at the time, and he had just scored three premium relics plus made his diary weapon/Horcrux. So he only had two to go, and the Muggle-killing necklace just doesn't strike me as something that would have tempted him enough to turn into a Horcrux. I can believe he would have cursed the necklace in the first place, though.

The opal associations are interesting and relevant, but they are also very obscure, and Rowling does drop clues so that a reader without an understanding of arcane fields (like gem lore) can follow them. That's the problem with my Headmaster Fortescue-Medieval humour association (although the ice cream maker who is also a history scholar is a clear Ravenclaw hint). And it's certainly the problem with my Hufflepuff cup transfigured into the Medal for Magical Merit theory--I can make a case for it, but the clues are so subtle and buried that it's not an easy case to make and for that reason could be dead wrong.

The thing I am convinced of, however, is that we have already seen all the Horcruxes and we've seen them in their current hiding places. The real Slytherin locket was at 12GP. The mystery Horcrux could be lots of things (but the "goblin-made" tiara seems a very strong hint to me although it could be a red herring). The Hufflepuff cup (methinks) is definitely in the trophy room at Hogwarts, but it's been disguised because it's a small gold cup with a badger engraved on it, so it would be easily recognized as Hufflepuff's (especially if Zacharias Smith is related to Hepzibah Smith, indicating too many chances for a family member to recognize the stolen family heirloom). The last one is hotly contested, depending on whether you are a Harrycruxer or not (I'm not).

I'm not sure if I can last another year of this. I might have to get another obsession for a while.

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(no subject) - [info]professor_mum, 2006-07-28 03:14 am UTC

[info]slash_kitten
2006-08-01 11:53 am UTC (link)
i like how you knit together everything in your theories. They all sound so plausible and frankly canon, I think there's a pretty good chance of it turning out to be at least close to one of your theories.

Thanks for sharing!

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[info]akaich0u
2006-08-04 07:39 pm UTC (link)
I like how you link Fortescue with the Ravenclaw line---it does make a lot of sense, and the way you connected his corpulent, red-nosed appearance with air is just brilliant! Knowing Rowling, your theories may very well come true.

I'm still a bit skeptical about Muriel being a Ravenclaw, but I like the idea of the Weasleys being part of the Gryffindor line. Very interesting ideas indeed, and very well written essay. =)

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[info]flamewarrior
2006-08-21 12:01 pm UTC (link)
I've read this before, but followed a link from [info]hp_essays to skim again.

I like the joint Ravenclaw/Gryffindor relic idea. It chimes with ideas I've been playing with regarding why Slytherin had a locket (ignoring, for a moment, the anachronism aspect) and Hufflepuff a cup, when by rights the founder related to water should have the cup and the oen related to earth should have the locket.

One quibble though. When I studied herbal medicine, we were taught that the types relating to the humours (coleric in Dippet's case) were a combination of elements: coleric is dry (air) and hot (fire); sanguine is hot (fire) and moist (water); phlegmatic is moist (water) and cold (earth); melancholic is cold (earth) and dry (air). I've come across a couple of references to humours in relation to alchemy where each humour is assigned to a single element. Can you shed any light on that?

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-08-21 01:07 pm UTC (link)
Hi, Flamewarrior.

I just Googled "Medieval humours" to come with information (following Rowling's hint that she assigned one of the four elements to each Hogwarts House). There are several Internet sites I found. I have no background in medievalism.

BTW--I think of the founders' relics as being reflective of their personalities as described by the Sorting Hat, not as being reflective of their House element.

Hufflepuff Cup represents the cup of hospitality since Helga Hufflepuff was willing to take any student that the others didn't want.

Gryffindor's Sword reflects Godric Gryffindor's courage and bravery.

Slytherin's locket reflects Salazar Slytherin's closed off personality and his desire for magical knowledge (the center of the locket) to be hidden from others.

Ravenclaw's tiara (if that's the right one) reflects both her fairness (it's an adornment) and her intelligence (since the tiara encircles the mind).

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(no subject) - [info]flamewarrior, 2006-08-21 02:49 pm UTC
late comment
[info]lincendiere
2006-09-04 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Very interesting and well thought.

There is another goblin-made object. It is mentionned in OotP, in the chapter where Hagrid related his adventures with the giants : he gave a goblin-made helmet to the chief of the giants.

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Re: late comment
[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-04 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Yes, thank you. My essay is wrong on that point(as you astutely noticed), although it does improve the argument that goblin-made items are very valuable and seemingly rare (since Dumbledore was using it as a gift to the Gurg along with that everlasting fire). In fact, the helmet was supposedly indestructable.

Thanks!

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(Anonymous)
2006-09-05 02:53 am UTC (link)
this was a very interesting read:) I read it before, and couldn't think what to say about it so I didn't say anything, but it has been twirling in the back of my mind ever since though! Today however I was on the JKR official site and I saw something that made this pop right into my mind, it's in the rumors section:

"Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description

No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin."

that definitely rules out the possibility that harry has the blood of all four founders in his blood doesn't it?

but I still think that he could have the blood of the other founders, especially griffindors!

I love you're fortescue theory and everything about this essay

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[info]felicitys_mind
2006-09-05 02:58 am UTC (link)
Thank you for reading and posting.

I had been hoping there was a Slytherin love child in Harry's bloodline (hard to believe a Slytherin having a love child, though), but I guess that one's off the table. I appreciate the information and the time you took to write. And I'm glad you liked the Fortescue theory. I was pretty proud of that one. We'll see in a year, won't we?

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-02-22 11:05 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2007-07-29 10:15 am UTC (link)
You read way too much between the lines. I am laughing at your theories. Hahaha.

You do know that things can happen without a whole novel of reasons behind them? Like Fortescue could be sitting in a throne-like chair because he simply liked that chair, or the artist liked it, or Rowling liked it, or it was completely random. Things do not have to have a reason. Harry's scar is shaped like a lightning bolt. That does not mean that Voldemort has an aversion to lightning or that Harry will be killed by a lightning bolt.

(choleric people are sometimes called bilious, and Ron mentioned having an Uncle Bilius),

And Hermione was the name of a Greek mythological woman. Ooh, that must mean that she is descended from Ancient Greek mythological goddesses!

You seem to like reading between the lines and connecting every little thing, even if it is of no importance, into a grand theory that does nowhere. I congratulate you.

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..
(Anonymous)
2007-09-30 09:36 pm UTC (link)
who ever wrote that doesn't appreciate the fun we fans that were really into theory had in making theories like these and reading others..
In my opinion these theories were the best ones I read before I read the seventh book!

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Re: .. - [info]felicitys_mind, 2007-10-02 05:37 pm UTC

[info]meowbooks
2008-05-17 09:28 pm UTC (link)
That is a wonderful theory. I like the thought that Harry might be a descendant of all four founders. :D This was very well written and researched. Bravo.

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